What do you think of the D-train concept? Take part in our poll and leave a comment with your vote. We'll publish the results and comments in the next issue of RAIL, on sale February 4.
The first London Underground D78-Stock train to be withdrawn from service is due to be delivered to Vivarail at Long Marston on January 19.
The move comes as Vivarail Chairman Adrian Shooter firms up his plans for converting the withdrawn Underground stock into diesel-electric multiple units (DEMUs), to be known as D-trains.
Vivarail has signed a contract to buy enough vehicles to build 75 two- or three-car DEMUs, which works out as 156 driving cars and 70 trailers. Aside from a small number of vehicles being kept by LU for conversion into engineering trains, this is the vast majority of the available vehicles. The trains run on the District Line.
Shooter, the former chairman of Chiltern Railways, told RAIL that LU put the trains out to public tender, and his company “bid a price which is quite a lot higher than scrap value”.
Once the first train arrives, work will begin immediately on converting it into a three-car prototype that is then scheduled to run on the site’s 1.8-mile (3km) test track in the summer. The intention is that it will then be approved for running on Network Rail track in the autumn.
“We are talking to several potential customers including TOCs in the UK. We are also talking to all the bidders for the Northern franchise. In addition, we are exploring an overseas opportunity,” said Shooter.
He told RAIL that Vivarail will sell or lease the trains, with or without maintenance contracts, and that he expects to sell the first train at the end of next year.
The company has contracts in place with Revolve (Brentwood, Essex), which is supplying the diesel power modules, and with Strukton (Holland), which is supplying the IGBT - insulated-gate bipolar transistor, control equipment that controls the traction motors in both traction and braking.
Shooter said Vivarail has “identified a large number of non-electrified routes where there are either frequent stations or many speed restrictions”.
And he countered the question that D-trains will be slower than other DMUs: “The power-to-weight ratio means that our trains have superior acceleration to those classes. We have had a performance simulation done for the Huddersfield-Sheffield route, which we selected because it has a selection of steep gradients, closely spaced stations and some higher-speed sections at the Sheffield end.
“The end-to-end timing of our trains is about three minutes less than those of other trains. That is before taking account of the fact that platform dwell times are likely to be less, because we can have up to four doors per side.”
Only the bare bodyshell, traction motors and bogies from the D78-Stock will be re-used - the bodyshells are aluminium and free of corrosion, and the bogies are ten years old.
“These are, effectively, new trains made affordable by re-using long-life components like the body and bogies, and incorporating the most modern technology to benefit passengers,” said Shooter.
“We are creating a train that is, in all important respects, as good as new. We most certainly intend to produce a train which is perceived by passengers to be just like a new train.
“With my team, I have some ‘form’ in this respect. Look at the Chiltern Mk 3s, for example. The same people are involved.”
For more on this story, see RAIL 766 on sale January 21.
- D-Stock specifications - the train that will become the D-train.
- What do you think of the D-train concept? Take part in our poll and leave a comment with your vote. We'll publish the results and comments in the next issue of RAIL, on sale February 4.
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Jamie Stallwood - 16/01/2015 12:29
Loving the idea. Go Adrian!
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Martin Hollands - 16/01/2015 14:58
Hmmm, not convinced about wether these would meet all the necessary legislation, but Adrian Shooter is nobody's fool. Finding diesel engines that comply with the proposed EU legislation was supposed to be difficult. Can't see that they will be equipped with toilets however as there will be nowhere to fit the retention tanks. The bogies are very track unfriendly so will attract high track access charges, however I suppose if they are 60mph max that will offset that a little. The ride quality will be awful unless they do something like adding some additional secondary suspension.
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Denny - 16/01/2015 15:57
Northern Rail get the dregs again!
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Jimmy - 16/01/2015 20:19
If they are like new trains keep them down in that there London.
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StPaddy - 20/01/2015 11:11
London Underground receive massive government subsidies so why are the D78s being scrapped with 15 years life remaining? Living in Harrogate, I don't want my hated pacers replaced with an OLDER train, my journey decelerated to 60 mph max, with a worse ride and fewer peak seats in a four car train. And no toilet! A bonkers idea.
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MikeyJo - 25/01/2015 19:45
@StPaddy, London Underground did not receive massive subsidies. Fares cover 95% of operating costs. What does the Northern Rail fares cover?55% if you are lucky. Get that massive Northern Chip off your shoulders
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StPaddy - 27/01/2015 13:56
TfL accounts for 2013/4 show £1.5bn government subsidy, of which DfT figures give £0.8bn were for buses, so there's £0.7bn for London's heavy and light rail. This is similar to the Northern subsidy if one includes the Network Grant, whose apportionment to Northern is ludicrously overstated. TfL had £1.6bn investment grant from the government last year alone, while Northern, serving 29% of UK population, has had virtually no investment for two decades, being punished for its subsidies. We don't have chips on our shoulders, we have a genuine grievance and after last year's insulting franchise proposal we're angry. South West England and East Anglia are also increasingly vocal about London eating all the pies.
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StPaddy - 28/01/2015 11:29
@MikeyJoe TfL's accounts show £1.5bn subsidy in 2013/4, of which DfT figures suggest £0.8bn is for bus services, leaving £0.7bn subsidy last year which compares to Northern's (including the overstated Network Grant apportionment). However while Northern, whose region covers 25% of the UK population, has had virtually zero investment for a decade, TfL had a government capital grant of £1.6bn last year alone. The 'chip on my shoulder' is a very real grievance. Northern rail users are angry about London eating all the pies, and the South West and East Anglia are also complaining.
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JB - 27/02/2015 08:50
The maximum linespeed on the harrogate line is 60mph apart from yhe single line sections, so your journey will not be decelerated!!
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stephen skinner - 21/01/2015 11:20
They will have toilets. See the illustrations.
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StPaddy - 21/01/2015 11:43
Not all configurations have toilets and if you're struggling to match seating capacity I predict it's the loo that would be sacrificed
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JSW - 21/01/2015 13:54
Pacers can do 75mph. D-trains will have a 60mph speed limit – already being called Crawlers. Hello? We have lines in the North where inter-urban and "country" (using Vivarail's term) trains can do 90 or more. (And how comfortable is D78 stock with its tube-style bogies even at 60?) A 2-car D-train would have fewer seats than a 2-car Pacer. So you need at least three cars. A longer train might be made up by adding trailers – reducing acceleration and eroding the claimed advantage of improved acceleration. Oh and by the way, there are some stations where a 55m long 3-car D-train wouldn't fit at the platform. Reliability in service must be questionable - the "white van" diesel is unproven in the confined space under a D78 vehicle. Most of the sample configurations have no toilets: surely a marketing gaffe - or a tacit admission that there just isn't room. Somebody with Mr Shooter's reputation should know better. Chiltern's passengers wouldn't accept this. It's an insult to Northern rail users who are expecting faster services with more desperately needed capacity (at least 20% according to the good Mr Osborne's Autumn Statement) as part of the new franchise. Crawlers might be suitable for short branch lines. I suggest parts of East Anglia and non-electrified Thames Valley branches. See how commuters in Henley, Marlow and Windsor like them. They are used to something better. The North also deserves better.
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Josh - 21/01/2015 22:08
The main factor is that it is a temporary solution. Don't forget in around 5 years time there will be oodles of 150s, 153s, 156s, 158s, 165s, 166s, 170s etc. going begging. Not to mention the entire fleet of Meridians and countless HSTs. In terms of he short platforms, they managed to fit HSTs with selective door operation so it shouldn't be an issue to fit the D-Train with that. The question is this, do us in the north continue to be seperated from the south to the extreme by keeping our pacers, or do we accept a little gesture from them and accept some pretty decent trains made new inside. I've used the District line alot and I can safely say that some of the track is in a far worse condition than some of the bad stuff up here. So with that in mind I don't think ride quality can be any worse than a pacer. The sad truth regarding the toilet issue is that if the journey time end to end is below a certain time limit there is no requirement for a toilet. But if they were to be used on a say Manchester Victoria to Preston service it wouldn't be too terrible. Also like the pacers they won't be allowed to run on say the WCML or on faster lines for long distance because as you rightfully said the top end speed is lower. Do bare in mind however that there are some pacers knocking about that are actually now restricted to 65mph. All I'm saying is that it might be worth keeping an open mind. London commuters complained endlessly about the 378s poor seating capacity. But as a regular standing passenger I'd rather stand on one of those than a pacer!
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Josh - 21/01/2015 21:56
As a railwayman with 13 years experience in various areas of the rail industry this is an interesting concept. Back in the 80s (I don't remember much up until the late 80s due to young age!) BR wasn't in the best state. Ageing rolling stock, under-used branch lines etc. resulted in the need of an effective way to produce new rolling stock to reduce building and running costs. Thus the pacer was born. Love them or hate them they did, that is DID, a fantastic job and saved many of the branch lines and lowering the cost of running. I have made no secret of my extreme dislike of the pacers. In my opinion they saved the day in the 80s and early 90s. They should have been commended for doing exactly what they were built for and for BR to accept that they'd had their money's worth. It however is now a shame that the north-south divide has got bigger and bigger over the last decade or so what with the amount of money being ploughed into rolling stock investment in the south, especially in the London and South-east. It really does give us northerners the feel of total neglect and separation. However I think this D-Train concept might just save the day. The south will actually do us a huge favour if this goes ahead. The pacers = bouncy, draughty, noisy, tired and awful seating. The D-Train could be the answer to us northerners prayers. They won't be new trains 100% and nor should anyone be given the illusion that they are. This concept is almost a mirror image of 80s BR and the need for a cost effective short term solution to an inerrant problem. In 5 or so years time there will be a massive surplus of DMUs due to the mass electrification projects. Some serious decisions will then have to be made as to which of the older 80s built rolling stock will be cost effective in remaining in service. Like the pacers the 150, 153, 155, 156s etc. will be very tired interior wise and will have the obvious requirement to be DDA compliant etc. The question will need to be raised as to what will be scrapped or kept. The D-Train however will effectively be a light weight, custom built urban, interurban and country branch line unit due to the multitude of options for interior specifications. The fact they will be new, apart from the bodyshell, bogies and motors, means that they could effectively operate for a far longer period of time than the 80s build sprinters useful lifespan. They would ironically almost be a 21st century pacer! The only difference being that they would be of far better quality with a proper solid bodyshell and BOGIES! The light weight would seriously reduce operational costs in track access charges alone. That coupled with the advanced engines and technology to save fuel and make them as green as possible to run. It is an irony in itself that a 1970s/80s built London Underground train might actually outlive a class 150. Even if they don't, it is a temporary solution until the currently heavily used DMUs become available and could easily be sold abroad. I for one hope they would be here to stay. I will however reserve some judgement until I see the finished product. Something tells me however that with Adrian Shooter's experience and obvious passion I won't/we won't be disappointed at all!
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StPaddy - 22/01/2015 12:03
The immediate issue isn't just a case of replacing the awful pacers, it's to provide the extra capacity that is desperately needed across Northern - the last franchise was stupidly let on a zero growth basis, but traffic is now 50% higher. Also the 15x units will need refurbishment very soon, and cannot in any event be expected to last more than 15 years, with their wholesale replacement being needed at the following franchise renewal. Many branch lines don't have the train frequency to ever justify electrification, but they're not going to close and, being stand-alone services, battery units aren't the solution. So it's a no-brainer that brand new DMUs are going to be needed eventually. But people are unwilling to act on this because there's a structural problem - the railway desperately needs a longer planning horizon, as people are unwilling to think beyond the end of the next franchise or control period. New units are going to come in the end - what is the point of delaying a few of them by investing millions in these slow and controversial Crawlers? George Osborne stood up in parliament and promised 'new and modern' trains to replace the Pacers - that's exactly what the North should be getting, and these Crawlers don't fit the bill.
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James Roe - 22/01/2015 16:47
You cannot make sensible judgements on the D Train until a prototype is in existence, these trains could turn out to be the best thing since sliced bread or total rubbish. What we do know is that they will have decent body shells, relatively modern bogies, higher acceleration and lower top speed. All these things suggest that they may be a good train. Lines like:- Colne to Preston, 18 stations in just over the hour, with very little 60mph plus running Middlesbrough to Whitby, 18 stations in 90 mins, none more than ten mins apart These would be ideal for this type of train and I am sure there are many other similar lines
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Dominic Riley - 26/01/2015 17:43
While I see it as a good way of recycling it is nevertheless how Pacers were conceived in the 1980's by recycling at least D Stock is rail vehicles and not buses, however why don't the North get new trains, the South always seems to get new trains for example always getting the 377s and the North gets cast offs from the 1980s i.e. the Class 319. If you are going to have new trains invest in companies that have their manufacturing over here for example Bombardier at Derby why not get 172's for Northern Rail? Overall I feel that it is a good idea but as someone said the ride quality will be awful with the fitting of secondary suspension and bearing in mind if they are limited to 60 then Pacers will be able to outstrip them at 75. All they are doing is exasperating the problem in the sense that they are keeping the present seating layout on the D stock, why not convert them to airline style?
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Chris - 29/01/2015 00:52
It's a secret plan by Chiltern to have a relatively cheap train for re-opening further lines. Look out for these appearing in Cowley (Oxford), re-opened Oxford-Witney, down the branch lines to Chinnor, Bridgnorth, Stratford-Honeybourne, Wycombe-Marlow. So tasteful Mk3s to get you home from London, with the last leg in a connecting souped up D78. Suddenly austerity doesn't seem so bad after all.
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TurboStar - 31/01/2015 00:15
Several people have mentioned that pacers can do 75mph. Im not sure about class 144s but Im sure class 142s are restricted to 60mph due to safety fears. Deffo the northern ones have been restricted to 60mph for a few years now.. With the better acceleration of the D-Train, They will leave a pacer behind.
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Cowli1 - 25/02/2015 08:41
No they're not, that was a tempory measure and is no longer the case.
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Outside the Marginals - 07/02/2015 12:41
What about heating / cooling of the passenger areas? The environment up on an exposed Pennine hill can be very different to a cut-and-cover London underground line. In winter, bitterly cold and high winds; in summer, problems of solar gain!
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Henry Law - 22/02/2015 22:02
A good idea if it can be made to work reliably but why the applied front end, which adds nothing apart from weight? The existing design is neat, fuctional and rational. Does it come up to crashworthiness standards though?
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David Harrison - 23/02/2015 21:10
can't wait
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Dave Kerr - 01/03/2015 12:09
Anything is better than the Rubbish Pacers that are in use now since they were designed for a maximum 20 year life whilst the D78 was designed as a platform that was and even now could be upgraded as per the above to a useful train for the next 15 years.
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Isambard - 28/03/2015 19:58
This is a rare example of thinking outside the box in the modern UK rail industry - as a fellow entrepreneur I applaud it. The Southern under Herbert Walker made a habit of recycling rolling stock, which was carried on by BR in the Bournemouth electrification. New rolling stock is extremely expensive & remanufacturing is a huge cost saving. The rail industry needs this kind of independent innovation. PS: However, I ride on Pacers fairly regularly & they cry out for a refurb. I know the ride quality is not great but a better interior (esp seats), doors etc would make a big difference.
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Karl Anthony Sumner - 02/04/2015 22:57
The D78 Stock Train has been a good reliable well maintained work horse for the Districk Line. I first saw this train newly delivered to London under ground and being tested when I was a school kid of 15years old through Elm Park Station . I joined London Underground and passed out as a guard on then in 1983 and passed out as a driver on them in 1985 and still drive them in 2015. I do believe your getting a great train and you should get antheir 10 to 15 years use out of them as Metro camel made a good train. So please look after them they wel do you proud. I am no trained up and driving are new S7 Stock train let's see if they can last as long as the D78 Stock only time will tell. 😄😄😄
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Paul - 05/06/2015 09:37
As always the North always gets cast offs from other region's the class 319 Northern Rail not bad I quite like them as for the D78 replacement for Pacer Nodding Donkey class 142 bad choice come on Government you Southeners get all brand new trains what's wrong with the North
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Diesel Dan - 08/06/2015 18:56
Typical. Just what we can expect for the North East.. Second hand rejects with opening doors into the saloon. Just what we need up here on a freezing cold winter's morning.. Freeze the cods off the passengers when they've just had a touch of warmth.
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michael roy smith - 08/07/2015 17:12
Anything that gives people new trains at a lower cost and can replace those awful pacers and have more seats and whats more produced in this country and not abroad creating more jobs must be a good thing Roll on i say and lets hopefully not wait years for them.
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Mr Burns - 24/07/2015 16:49
I don't really like the seating plan, esspecially the sideways seating. And I don't like the fact that the speed will be limited to 60 mph. I don't care for fast acceleration, trains aren't supposed to accelerate quickly. I vote we keep the Pacers. I know many will disagree but I actually love Pacer Trains. They are my favourite train.I love riding them. I love the sound of the engine. I love the noises they make. I like the bus-like interior and design. I like the folding bus-style doors. I love them as functional or just as all-purpose trains. Shame others don't like them and that they might get rid of them soon :(
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Mike Pease - 02/08/2015 18:37
The simple, rugged construction of the Pacers has stood them in good stead for an amazing 30 years. even today, they are remarkably brisk and smooth-running on good track - compare the ride of a 143 unit on the Maesteg branch to its performance on the Bridgend - Cardiff main line! It will be interesting to find out how the rebuilt D Train rides on poor branch line tracks.
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Steve D - 29/09/2016 10:16
Try riding a pacer every day over average track might lead to a different view on Pacer ride quality. How can a 4 wheeled vehicle match bogies of D stock and most other trains? Pollution Pacers spill onto rail patrons and houses along the track is also an issue - noise and chemical
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Free Games Download - 16/11/2015 04:19
Don't expect a train to be ready for boarding three hours before it leaves. Even at the station where a train starts, the platform number might be posted only 20 minutes before departure - or for a local train, perhaps just 10 minutes before. So don't panic if the platform isn't shown half an hour before it leaves, just wait patiently until it comes up on the departure boards. This is perfectly normal.
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D. Pearson - 03/01/2016 18:35
A good Idea, the trains have years of life left.
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Alan - 17/01/2016 23:12
I had my most uncomfortable ( and frightening) ride on an ex-underground train in the Isle of Wight. Surely, as a country, we're better than this conversion to provide modern and attractive transport.
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Bev Wood - 18/01/2016 19:15
I really like the idea of this project; the fact that these coaches are not just going to be scrapped, that an interesting conversion is going to be carried out on them - and the satisfaction of having our curiosities satisfied when we see the final result. I wish the firm all the best - too much throwing away is typical these days.
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Steve - 16/03/2016 22:51
I wonder: DB class 644 got an acceleration of 1m/sec with two engines on a 5-car set. Now compare this with a class 158 or similar: acceleration is underdeveloped even with one engine / car. And noisy they are... What will these be like?
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Andrew Cawood - 08/04/2016 17:39
Sorry i think these trains do not look much better than the Pacers.I think brand new trains are needed not something secondhand modified. You would not do this if you were considering when buying a new car.
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